From Privilege to Progress: #ShowUp

Kelly Croce Sorg
So everybody, introduce yourself and give us your pronouns when you do, please.

Melissa DePino
I am Melissa de Pino, I am that white lady that tweeted that Starbucks video in Philly, and the co founder of From Privilege to Progress. She/her.

Michelle Saahene
I’m Michelle see him. I’m the black woman that called out the incident. I am a co founder of From Privilege to Progress, pronouns she and her.

Aurora Archer
And so we’d love to get started. There was a very visible, a very known moment that brought the two of you together. And we’d love for you to take us back to that day.

Michelle Saahene
I’m going to start how I start all of our speeches, which is trying to get people to visualize exactly like what we saw. I walked there that day. And that was probably my second or third time at that Starbucks location in the five years that I lived in Philly, I think because it was in Rittenhouse. And it was honestly such a white area, I would bypass it and I would go to the one on 19th. Because they just felt a little bit more diverse, welcoming. So I went there, I’m doing my work. And you know, I bought something because I feel uncomfortable when I go into spaces and I don’t buy things because when you’re black sometimes you police your own body. So I said let me let me buy something and then I’ll sit down and I’ll work and I was there for a while, maybe 45 minutes before I saw the very cute and attractive Donte and Rashon walk in, so adorable. So adorable. The one with the green jacket, and the beard. So cute. So I saw them walk in and they went up to the barista.

Aurora Archer
So you notice them right away ?

Michelle Saahene
Right away. When I was there, there was maybe I think it was only one, one or two other black people in the whole Starbucks. So when other people of color walk into your space, you notice them right away. It’s like I see you you see me let’s make eye contact. Just to you know, know that we have each other here. You know, they walked up to the barista. They asked to use the bathroom. She said No, it’s for paying customers only. And they sat down. That was it. And when she walked away for some reason I kept watching her and not the guy sitting down. My eyes were fixated on her. And she walked away and I saw her mouthing something to herself. And I was like, I don’t trust I think she just said something racist. That was my first thought my gut thought was I don’t trust her. Wow. But when you have those thoughts, you have to you have to check yourself, we have to constantly be checking ourselves. And I said, Michelle, you have no idea what she just said, Maybe she forgot something in the back, because she was walking towards the back. I had been actually working on some life coaching stuff that day. And I had been doing work recently about like negativity and negative thoughts. And I noticed that I was just I just didn’t like this person. And I was like, “You’re being judgey for no reason, Michelle”.

Aurora Archer
Well, I think it’s so interesting that you were keenly aware. I think we walk into spaces, mostly being keenly aware. But I think it’s absolutely interesting that in that moment, you were doing work that was reflecting an opportunity for you to be self reflective, and observe yourself as well as the environment that you were in in that moment.

Michelle Saahene
Oh, yeah. Because you have to I mean, at the time, I was trying to be a life coach. And so I have to, I have to practice what I preach. I can’t, you know, how am I going to help other people do if I’m not doing that myself? It was not, you know, it was not in my everyday practice. So, so put my head back down. Less than 10 minutes later, the cops showed up.

Aurora Archer
So there was no additional exchange that she had with the young men.

Michelle Saahene
I didn’t see anything. Apparently, I saw an article later that they had said she had actually came from around the counter went up to them and asked them if they like needed anything else. And I was like, Huh. And they were like, No, when has a barista ever come from behind the counter to ask anyone in a Starbucks if they need anything? Never. So when the cops came in, I was like, huh, I’ve been here for 45 minutes. Nothing’s going on. I wonder if they’re responding to something that happened earlier in the day or? What? Why? Why are they here? This is just so strange. And so, of course, I start eavesdropping, and I heard her lie. And I heard her say, those two gentlemen in the corner are refusing to leave. And I was like, Oh, my God. I was right. I was right. Whatever I was feeling when I looked at her, I was right. When I started getting really nervous, I looked over at Dante and Rashon. And I, I saw them noticing the cops as well. Right? Because why are they here are the only black people in Starbucks. They looked a little bit confused, a little bit, just a little teeny, tiny bit nervous, but not too concerned. Until the cops started walking directly towards them. Now, mind you, when she told the cops that they were refusing to leave, there was no questioning. There was no investigation. They weren’t like, what happened? What was the exchange? Did they do something? They didn’t ask anything?

Aurora Archer
A validation up the assumption or the statement…

Michelle Saahene
Nothing, which is why I got very nervous because I said, oh, oh, okay, this is how this is gonna happen. So I stand up. I’m like, inching closer and closer to the cops cuz I’m trying to hear what they’re saying. I’m trying to hear what they’re talking about. And I start, I started recording. And I’m hearing them say pretty much that you have to leave. And they were like, why? When the manager wants you to leave. Why, like, explain to us why we need to leave. This doesn’t make any sense. We were sitting here waiting for somebody, what are you talking about? Right? So escalates. There’s two cops in this three cops, and it’s four cops. And there’s eight cops. What ended up being eight police officers there to take out two gentlemen, who didn’t buy coffee. Now, mind you, there was a white guy next to me for 45 minutes. He didn’t have a coffee. I saw a white girl come in mid jog. I remember her specifically because she was wearing like black leggings. And she’d like purple headphones. Come and use the bathroom and leave. I started getting really anxious. And I started I remember like, probably TMI, but like my armpits were wet. And I was sweating. And I was I was shaking like trembling because I really didn’t want to see something happened in front of me. I don’t know if I would be able to emotionally handle seeing that. So, you know, I start yelling I don’t even remember what I was saying. To be honest with you. No clue.

Aurora Archer
You were directing your feedback to who are simply saying it to the

Michelle Saahene
general public, just the general public because the most infuriating thing for me that day was that no one was doing anything. No one was paying attention. Um, like, probably a third of you, or maybe half of you don’t have coffees. Why aren’t you saying anything?

Aurora Archer
They’re not doing anything they’re choosing not to do they’re choosing choosing not to see and they’re choosing not to get engaged and speak up.

Michelle Saahene
There was actually a guy sitting back to them a white man next to them that didn’t I don’t think he had a coffee and he just like got up and walked to the other side of the Starbucks as they were being arrested. And I don’t like watching the video because when I see him, I always wonder to myself, like, like, you know, fast forward a year and few months like, I wonder how he feels about himself right now? How do you feel about yourself dude? Are you are you proud of yourself? Seeing what transpired after that you could have been part of the solution and you chose you, actually, you got up and walk to the other side of the Starbucks. Shame on you. And I will say that shame on you. So I walked up to the cop, one of them. And I was so scared because I was like, I don’t know what they’re gonna do to me or what they’re gonna say to me. But like, because no one’s doing anything or saying anything. I have to, I need them to know that I see them. And I’m their sister, and I’m going to do something for them. So I said, Why are you doing this? And the cop said, go ask the barista. Like, there was like, no accountability, responsibility on their part for what they were doing. So can I call the cops if I just don’t want someone in my space, and you’re gonna come and do that for me? Is that how this works? I thought that I didn’t I didn’t know that this is this is how this works works that way for some people clearly. So I walked right up to her. And I said, why’d you call the cops. And when I tell you her face got bright red, it got like crimson red, her chest, and her face just flooded with redness. And I was like, Oh, I hit something. I had a spot. And she goes, Oh, I can’t, I can’t really say in her little in her little voice like as if like she was like the victim of something. So I said, Oh, I can say I saw the entire thing. I said, Did you feel like your life was in danger. And she ignored me and like walked down the counter, like to the register. And so I followed her, because she’s ignoring me. I don’t think so. So I followed her and I said, Did you feel like you were threatened in any way and in any way? She ignored me. So I looked at her and I said, You’re fucking coward. I went back to my to my table, and I gathered up all my stuff. And I look up and it’s just it’s like, now it’s dead silent again, because I think everyone’s just staring at me. And like a bunch of white women staring at me knows like, Oh, my God, oh, my God. And

Kelly Croce Sorg
at this point, the men are outside with outside police.

Michelle Saahene
Outside,

Aurora Archer
and then outside and everybody else who was in the Starbucks is sitting just typing to regroup,

Michelle Saahene
there are still a few of the women who are there now. Now they’re looking at me. And I saw a couple faces and one woman because she was about to cry. Another one was like, like, trying to figure out like, what, what she should do. And I look over and Melissa stood up. I didn’t know I didn’t know Melissa, I’m gonna say a woman stood up. And like we made eye contact. And she was like, you know, I was just here the other day, like if I come here, and no one ever asks me to leave. And you know why? Everyone knew. In that moment, everyone knew what it was about. And so we pretty much staged a walkout we got maybe I don’t know, maybe 15 or so people to walk out. And I remember I was talking to the cops again, just, you know, reiterating that how insane this was. And two of the junior cops looked at me and they said, Well, we weren’t being disrespectful, were we? And I said, No, you two weren’t necessarily being disrespectful. And I said, but do you understand that you’re essentially arresting these guys for not buying a coffee? And then they turned it back to me? (Oh, wow.) Like you know what you’re doing then?

Kelly Croce Sorg
Right? So I’ll take that as a yes.

Michelle Saahene
after that. So honestly, it’s a bit fuzzy for me, like I was, so I was so jumbled, but that’s when I guess we, Melissa and I exchanged a couple words, I barely remember that. Vaguely I was. So I actually had a meeting that afternoon that I cancelled, because I was so upset that I was just like, I just need to process what just what just happened? It was maddening.

Aurora Archer
I can’t even imagine. And yet I can. Because unfortunately, it’s not anything new. And I think that your body and reaction to it is a conditioning of what we see every day happening to brown and black people. I also think that there’s a component in here with regards to who determines safety, what biases actually trigger a perception or non perception of safety. And I also think that there’s an accountability overall when we talk about ourselves as humans to each other. But absolutely, from the perspective of law enforcement. And the question of inquiry, the question of fair and equal conduct and questioning that clearly did not occur in this situation.

Michelle Saahene
Yes. No questions.

Kelly Croce Sorg
I can’t imagine that’s like, fundamental cop protocol. Like that’s just how it rolls. I don’t understand what I’m

Michelle Saahene
saying. Like when you’re when you get called to the scene, you just start arresting people without asking questions like what do you what are you doing?

Kelly Croce Sorg
If the shoes were on the other feet and black cops came in and just arrested two white dudes for sitting there. What kinds of reactions with their have been? That’s what I remember. I just remember the news coming on the incident playing out on the news. And I would like slap my forehead. I was like, really Center City Philadelphia. Really? Like, I should not be surprised.

Aurora Archer
And it’s so interesting because my reaction was like, yep. Holy shit. There we go yet again. Yet again. And so I think this takes us to you, Melissa, that white lady over that white lady over here. So you’re sitting, and you’re looking up and all of a sudden, seeing thinking feeling what

Melissa DePino
I was sitting there, and I saw the I saw the police come in, I saw the two police officers before I saw them multiply. But what really struck me the most was I heard Michelle’s voice. And I heard her say, they didn’t do anything. I saw the whole thing. At some point, we cut eyes, I stood up and I started saying, you know, well, I’ve been in there before. And I mean, for for me, watching Dante and Rashon sit there. Just quietly with all these police officers, one of the things that really struck me is when they started sliding the chairs out of the way to get to them to like make them stand up and put on the handcuffs. I mean, the shame, the fear the I’ve had never Honestly, I’ve never seen anything like that. I mean, I intuited that those things happen. I knew that those things happened, but I’d never seen it. It never had never been so real (to your immediate presence) in my immediate presence. So so even though I kind of knew what happened, it wasn’t real. It wasn’t real. You know, we talked about when when do you when did you ever first feel your blackness? Or when did you first feel your whiteness? That was when I first Oh, okay. This doesn’t happen to me. I felt it in that moment. So we, we stood up, we walked out, we followed the police outside. And there was a young white woman sitting next to me who had been videotaping. We walked out and I said, someone needs to share that. And she said, What, what’s your number? I’ll send it to you. And I said, okay, so she sent it to me. And I had no social media presence at the time. But I thought what the heck I mean, I’ll put it out there. So I wrote this caption. And I was like shaking writing the caption, how do I word this? One of the things is, I think I said, you know, they were sitting in there. They’re being arrested for not taking out in handcuffs for not buying coffee. I’m not doing verbatim here. I wrote, all the other white people are wondering why this never happens to us. And I wrote it. And I looked at Michelle, who was a complete stranger. And I was like, Is this okay? And I don’t even know. Did you actually read that caption when I showed it to you? No, I didn’t think she did. And I realized, in retrospect, there’s so much I realized, in retrospect, I was trying to get her approval because she was black. And did I say the wrong thing?

Kelly Croce Sorg
Here fact check this for racism for me please.

Melissa DePino
Exactly. But even now, one of the things that I think about a lot is how I wrote that caption, if I could rewrite it today, I was trying to protect the other white people who weren’t speaking up. Oh, all the other white people because all the other white people weren’t wondering. I was wondering, and that one other woman?

Michelle Saahene
Well, actually, maybe two, there was like three or four girls were just like chit chatting afterwards about what we saw. And they realized that this would have happened to them. And I just blurt it out. I said, Yeah, because you’re white. And I said, Oh, I wonder if that was just triggering to them. And I remember they paused, looked at each other looked at me, and they were like, you’re right.

Kelly Croce Sorg
See? Because that is a good reaction.

Michelle Saahene
Right? Because in that moment, it was just so impossible to to deny it. They knew they knew. Yeah, because they didn’t have coffees.

Aurora Archer
Oh, I want to unpack what you realize now in hindsight, about that caption, and in that moment, writing that caption and wanting Michelle to validate it to excuse the other white people in Yes. In that moment in that Starbucks from taking any level of accountability to their role or lack there of

Melissa DePino
yeah, like I said, that moment. I mean, look, we can go back to my background and growing up in an all white Catholic, Italian and Irish neighborhood where there were I know, there were two black girls in my high school. Nobody I’m using it quotes you can’t see, but nobody thought of them as black, you know? And, exactly. And now when I think about I think, oh my gosh, what they must have gone through, but it’s terrible. I, I knew I was white, like, intellectually, but I never saw that as part as a part of my identity that mattered. But it matters so much in this society that we live in, for how I feel about myself, and how I take an active role in a just and equal society, right? (Correct). So yeah, I didn’t know anything. I really, I thought I knew so much. I really did.

Aurora Archer
How would you have described yourself as a white woman and you’re sort of

Melissa DePino
not racist. not racist. I, I had gone to graduate school at Temple University and had decided I was going to teach high school English and that I wanted to teach in Camden, New Jersey, which an entire black and brown population. And I was going to be, I was going to look like the white savior. I even minored in African American Studies. When I got my masters. One of my most proud moments is I was in Sonia Sanchez, one of the most legendary poets, one of her poetry classes. Amazing. And I think it was, I was either the only white person or maybe there was another one. And I remember she called me sister because she called everybody sister. And I was like, Ah, I’m in my whiteness, just disappeared. But so I, like I wasn’t racist. But I had no idea what racist was, I thought it was personal behavior. I thought it was only personal behavior, (a star, not a constellation). Exactly. And even though I knew, I mean, I knew I had sign a minor in African American Studies. I knew some stuff, but I didn’t internalize it in a way, in relation to me as white. Got it. It was one of those Aha, transformational moments where, you know, all of a sudden, the, you know, there’s a lot of ways I explained about one way I explained it is that, that my, my lens was so clouded. And then all of a sudden, a little bit of light got through, and I could see a little bit, and I was like, Whoa, it was the upside down. And then I started seeing and hearing everything around me in a different way. And with every new discovery to me, I know how the sounds, honestly, with every new discovery, I was like, Whoa, is that real? Is that real?

Aurora Archer
Am I really witnessing what’s happening?

Kelly Croce Sorg
It’s like, that’s racist. That’s racist. That’s racist. That’s racist. That’s versus all of a sudden, every single thing every every,

Melissa DePino
I was like, Oh, my God, that’s another America like I don’t I can see it in a different way. That, that that moment was just the beginning in the year and a three months since. And continuing. You know, this is such a lifelong process of learning and undoing all the lies we were taught in school. And (the whitewashing) exactly, and disaggregating the, the silos that we live in,

Kelly Croce Sorg
so you hit tweet, and you had like, how many followers because (300 , if that) I mean, I did you send it out there? The bird flies away? Yep. And then what you’re kind of like, well, this day sock, what do you do?

Melissa DePino
I was freaking out. I was like, freaking out. I called my son, my, he was 18 at the time. I was like, You’re not gonna believe what happened. You’re not gonna. And I told him what happened. He was like, Oh my gosh, wow, that’s crazy. And I walked home and I was like, beside myself. And as I was walking home, though, I thought, Oh, I’m gonna also tweet this at some people’s names that I knew. I knew I knew of Shaun King and I knew of DeRay McKesson. I tweeted it at by, like forwarded it to both of them not thinking anything. I mean, I didn’t know much about the I mean, I knew they were out there. I knew they were activists, I knew they had something to do with Black Lives Matter but I didn’t really know anything. And so I got home and then I called a friend and a white friend and not racist white friend like me. And I told her what happened and she said, Wow, that’s crazy. I wonder like, there has to be more to that story. And I and in my new world of the upside down I was like, wait a minute, why are you saying that right? But what if there isn’t any more that I said no, there’s nothing more to that story. I saw the whole thing and then I thought oh my God, holy crap. That’s I hadn’t been there. I would have said the same thing.

Kelly Croce Sorg
Yeah, that like white person, like, oh, I don’t want rushed to judge. I don’t have all the information.

Aurora Archer
But in fact, there is judgment. (Yes.) Right. There is actually judge (for sure). There’s judgment that says I’m assuming that something more than what has been relayed actually happened. (Correct) Because my bias is saying, if two black men get arrested, they must have done something. Yes. You just didn’t see it.

Melissa DePino
Exactly. Exactly. Then everything that came at me, every conversation, everything I saw out in nature, I, I couldn’t see any of it the same way anymore. And I started questioning everything. It was really amazing. And I feel like ever since and this is part of why we do this work ever since I just want to like, get everybody else to see what I can now see, because I know, so many people in my circle people I grew up with like, like, if they saw it, if they could actually see it. Oh, my gosh, things would be really different. I think if we can just get them to see it.

Aurora Archer
So I know we’re going to talk about what you guys are doing now. And we definitely want everyone to understand that. But I think there’s something very powerful there because and this has become the impetus of the work that you’re doing. Because you had lived your whole life. Melissa, not seeing it. Yep. Not sort of knowing that maybe there was an upside down world and hearing people say there was a different America but being like, No, I don’t think so. I don’t see it. It ain’t there. Right. Until the moment you saw it.

Melissa DePino
It wasn’t that I would thought it was out there. And I was denying it. It was more like it just wasn’t in my field of vision. Because look, I mean, we were all educated in the same way, I’m sure. You know, like, for example, Thanksgiving I was taught Thanksgiving was it was a lovely meal between two different kinds of cultures who had hugs and handshakes and smoke the peace pipe, or whatever. Like that we we weren’t taught any of the truth about how and why and for whom the country was built. It wasn’t in anywhere in my in my field of vision. And then I lived a life I mean, I went to you know, I grew up in this neighborhood that I explained to you, I went to Villanova as a I went to college. And then even when I went to Temple that expanded my view a little bit. But even that didn’t completely open it up in a way that I could actually see it. Because I my whole friend group, everybody in my life looked exactly the same, except for my students who I was helping.

Aurora Archer
Well, and I think because I think this is what’s so interesting about what we choose to see and hear what we want to see and hear. And so that’s why for me, but you’re denying something. And you may not be consciously denying it, but you’re choosing not to see it because and I’m gonna go back to a couple of things that you shared. You guys shared one, when you went up to the barista, Michelle, she saw you in that moment. She didn’t hear you when you said what did they do? But she saw you because she turned bright red. Right? And, and I just think there’s something very powerful about seeing and hearing each other. Because you talked about when the gentleman walked into the Starbucks, you saw them, you made eye contact with them. And you said, Hey, I’m your sister. I’m here. Right? But in that moment, the barista chose not to hear you or see you until you confronted her afterwards. People of color don’t feel seen by white people.

Kelly Croce Sorg
I think there’s a huge racist angle of we can’t look at black people relaxing and not doing without some sort of judgment. Like that’s what I think there’s like this. Whether it’s projecting laziness or, you know, soliciting or whatever it is loitering, whatever that word is, like, why can’t they sit there and relax?

Melissa DePino
Something unconscious in me feels threatened by your presence. Absolutely. And that’s that’s a lot to unpack because there are many, many reasons that that I feel afraid? I mean, absolutely.

Michelle Saahene
If I see a white person relaxing, I don’t it doesn’t occur to me to, to think that you’re being lazy. It doesn’t occur to me to think you need to get up and do something. Oh, that looks nice. Like, but when you see me not doing what, why am I lazy? And why can I take a break?

Aurora Archer
Or when you see me laughing and having fun? Why is that disruptive?

Michelle Saahene
Because Because on the plantation, we’re not supposed to be having fun. We’re supposed to be working.

Melissa DePino
Well, that and I think yesterday, I think it was or the day before I saw on Bryan Stevenson. And he was talking about how black behavior has been criminalized, from the very beginning. So anything you’re doing is criminal.

Michelle Saahene
Anything, and everything I was listening to Ann Braden interview, I got to like, maybe like 15 or 20 minutes in and she was a reporter during I think, the 40s or 50s, maybe the 50s. And there was a case where a black man was, was sentenced to death. Because a white woman was walking down the street, and there was a black guy across the streets. And she said that he looked at her in a weird and troubling way. So they charged him with assault with the intent to ravish. And they sent him to die. And they killed him. It was a legal lynching. Like, what, what, what I would love for more white women to hear stories like this, just to understand why it’s such an issue. I mean, it’s like,

Aurora Archer
what did you see when you see me? (Right!) What what do you imagine when you see me? You know, because I can share countless stories, right? I mean, just you know, traversing corporate America, where there is such a presumed assumption of my language and my body and my facial expressions in a negative way, that have no connection to how I’m actually feeling. And quite honestly, white people not taking ownership that what you’re feeling has nothing to do with me.

Melissa DePino
Exactly. It’s so unconscious. I mean, when you you know, even even if, you know, your your, you know, that history of the white woman being, you know, “brutalized by the, by the black man, you know, back in the day”, even if you know that your conscious mind goes well, that’s, that’s not today. But your unconscious, feels threatened because of that.

Kelly Croce Sorg
And I just, I would ask white women to like flip the script. So I had this conversation around with my brother and my family the other night. And some people that I knew probably wouldn’t love my racially charged discussions. And I was like, I was like, let’s talk about all the times that we were arrested. I was like, remember that time that was arrested and when they took us way in the paddy wagon, we were at that we had this crab night at the shore. And we thought was so funny. We’re taking pictures in the frickin cell. I kid you not, I could probably find them. And we did a community service or something. Two years later, I get a check in the mail from like that Avalon police department paying me back for the fines that I had paid because some dudes dad who was a lawyer brought it to their attention. We weren’t served our Miranda rights or some crap like that. And we got everything expunged and paid back. Okay, remember the cops came because we bought all the ready whips out of the 711 in order to do Whippets, and like seven cops arrived, and drove us all home. Okay, so we’re saying I go. Okay, now imagine we were black, and everyone went? Is it can you imagine? Can you imagine that happening? And like everybody’s been young and stupid. Everybody has been 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 years old and done stupid ass shit. Why are we paid back? Why are we driven home and other people are in prison for the rest of their life? Thanks for their probation. Thanks.

Aurora Archer
Or, honestly, or they lose their lives. You get to walk away with your life.

Michelle Saahene
You don’t What did your family say? When you when you brought it to their attention? Was it just silence or no,

Kelly Croce Sorg
actually the people that I didn’t think would say something said that would not have been the case. I mean, that that’s how we’re going – like in my case is ridiculous, like insane. You know, you can’t find it on my record. No, professional white woman. I’m telling you, that’s amazing. I will tell you, I’ll tell you everything.

Melissa DePino
Dude, I had a party. Party at my house. My dad did not speak to me for three months afterwards. Wow. But I had a party. I think I was after freshman year of college. So I was at 19 The Police came, and they came into the house. And they stood there with every well each person called their parents and got safely home.

Kelly Croce Sorg
I can recall that happening. I was

Michelle Saahene
I was never arrested. But I remember I was out with friends and I was accused of I was accused of being a thieving whore. Oh, no. Finally, officer, literally, I remember I was in the club. And I remember this white guy walked up to me. And he got really close to my face and was just staring at me. And I was like, What are you looking at? Yeah, like, go away. Oh, you’re being really weird. And then like five minutes later, I was approached in the club by five officers with bulletproof vests that said crime unit on it. Or they asked me to come aside with them. I looked around to all my friends. And I was like, by myself. Yeah. So when I said, my friends follow up, but like kind of stood back. And this got this big white officer was berating me asking me all these questions now. I was so scared of him. He was he was being so mean, that I actually like I was I was starting to like pee myself because I was so terrified of the way he was treating me. And then I somehow found out that that the white guy that had walked up to me got really close to my face. He was trying to determine if I was the woman that he had slept with a few, I guess maybe a week before, who had apparently cleaned out his bank account, I guess he like fell asleep. And she like took his debit card. And yeah, and he thought that I was her. (because all black women look the same). So you slept with her. And you don’t know what she looks like, there you go. The description was a thin, I guess average height black woman and you got a foot from my face. And you couldn’t tell that I wasn’t her. I remember I yelled at him. And I was like, You can’t treat me this way. I said, this is not okay. And he turned around, he walked back to me, he got my face. And he said, This is your fault. Oh, and I said, my fault for being black. And a white female cop grabbed my arm. And she pulled me to the side. And she said, I think you should report him because I’ve seen him be racist in the past. And from then on, I was just, I was just so much more aware. I was like, it doesn’t matter what I do in this world. Doesn’t matter how how much I fit into a white space. I’m going to be treated as black.

Kelly Croce Sorg
And can we fast forward to your like, peace, I’m out, to Ghana.

Michelle Saahene
I mean, after the 2016 election, I remember I woke up that morning and I had like, probably like 30 text messages from all my white friends be like, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? And I was like no. And I was starting to actually kind of get depressed a bit because there was just so much out that I didn’t know I grew up in a white school. I wasn’t taught anything. I knew something was wrong. But my parents aren’t Ghanaian. So they didn’t know how to to talk to me about racism, they didn’t know anything. So I was just left to figure everything out for myself, and study everything myself. And then when I started looking into it, I was like, I don’t want to be here anymore. I don’t want to be here, because I didn’t fit in into the white space. And I didn’t yet fit into the black space because I was still to, quote unquote, white for them. I spoke white. Most of my friends were white, but I grew up in a white town. And so even though I wanted to be friends with more black people, I didn’t feel totally accepted by them. Because I thought that maybe they thought of me as I was, I would always think that they would think of me as like a traitor because I they would see me with white people and I’m gonna say, Oh, do they do they think that I’m, I’m not with them. It’s like you don’t know. Like I am experiencing microaggressions every single day in this space, trust me. So I was like, oh my god, I’m done. I was like, I just want to go try and live in Africa for a while because I’d been there in 2010 or 2009. And I felt so free. I remember that was so free. I went again in 2017 and that changed my life. I remember I went to a slave Castle purposely. And it’s I went to Cape Coast and Ghana NSSP big and I don’t like that they call it a castle. (Yeah, that’s really disturbing). It’s where they held slaves. Ready to go across the Middle Passage. Yes. At the top of this castle was a chapel it was so where they would pray to their God. But in the in the bottom was where they would rape the women. Torture them. Beat people. I mean, I stood on the mummified remains of slaves feces and their throw up and like I heard the stories and I remember I walked out of the one of the dungeons and I was like, I was like ready to puke about it was like, are you okay? I was like, I had to like put my hands on my on my legs. And I was like, No, I’m not okay. I’m not okay. I remember like looking over the ocean. trying to imagine what it could have been like because there’s this door and the door is called the door of no return. And we walked through that door and I was just like, and at the time there were like little boys playing soccer, like on the beach. And I’m thinking I’m like, they don’t know what what took place here. They probably they probably don’t know, there were like, nine. And when I came back, I couldn’t look at a black person the same way. I couldn’t look at a black person and not think to myself, Oh my gosh, we could be related. You could be my, my neighbor in Ghana. We could be it could be cousins, cousins, we could be family

Kelly Croce Sorg
Talk about being robbed.Just robbed of history. Yeah, generations. Culture.

Michelle Saahene
Even though that’s not my my immediate family’s lineage. I just felt so much more of a connection to black Americans here that I never felt before. And it’s weird too, because suddenly then like, I was just like making more friends with black people after I came back. Like there was just this. And I wonder if it’s because I feel like my whole energy shifted, where it’s like I was now literally connected to them. And I was like, an I need to I need to I need to go back home. But then when the Starbucks thing happened, that was that was part of that. I see you. And I’m going to purposely see you to know that I want you to know. Because for years, there was a disconnect. And that day I was like, this is this is over you You are my brothers. And because they even reminded me and my brother, my brothers, my little brother, my older brother, their demeanor is so calm. They’re like the most calm men like on the planet. I don’t know how my sister and I are the way that we are. They are like, they’re just the perfect, we are insane. And they are just always just like even keeled all the time. So I’m thinking to myself, like if that was my brother, I would hope that someone would do that for them. Because it could be my brother. He still lives in near Hershey, Pennsylvania, I worry about him and his white girlfriend. And I’m like, I hope that she would do that for him. Yes. I mean, I was I was ready to go. But then when that happened, I said, You know what, because I don’t have that ancestral trauma in my, in my DNA. I almost then felt like, I almost feel like I it was like, paying paying something back. Like I need to do what I can to speak for the African Americans that that are tired, that don’t want to speak about these things. They just want to live their lives in peace. And I’m like, You know what, I? I’m going to do this for you. I hope I’m doing it. I hope I’m doing it. Right. But it’s to me, it’s just it’s something that I feel like I have to do. Yeah.

Aurora Archer
And for different reasons. Melissa, this incident also changed you?

Melissa DePino
Well, I just couldn’t unsee what I saw. Yeah. And it was one of those moments that sort of like, completely undoes you. And then I had to work on redoing myself-

Aurora Archer
We call it the dismantling process to then rebuild

Melissa DePino
Excellent. I didn’t know there was a term, that’s what I’ve been doing. So yeah, I like took it down to nothing. And it’s funny, because as you’re, you’re talking about this, and it’s, I have a very, a very white fragile moment that I’m going to, I’m going to say because I’m like, I have a history of depression, I had two episodes of depression in my life. And like a week and a half after the Starbucks thing, I fell into the third episode of depression that I’ve had in my life. And I had to go back on antidepressants, and I had to go to my psychologist and all this kind of stuff. And I and I thought, I’m like saying to myself, Oh, okay, you’re sounding like the victim, like, like, nothing happened to you. And you use your your, your being peak white lady, and that, oh, woe is me. I witnessed this. And now I’m in a depression. But the fact of the matter is, it threw me in a depression.

Michelle Saahene
I don’t think it’s fragile at all. No, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s fragile. I told you about my my depressive moment after the Starbucks thing. Yeah, I had never really been like, depressed, depressed before. And I think that was the first time that I was like, Okay, I think I don’t know what depression feels like. But I think that this is it. I don’t think it’s fragile at all. I think. I think that your eyes were open to the world. How can you not be depressed when you start to see everything? It’s depressing.

Melissa DePino
You know, what threw me there was I was like, I thought everything was one way and then all of a sudden it was upside down. And it just took me down to like nothing. I and I and the reason I say this fragile is like okay, but I’m not experiencing the trauma. But we did talk about that.

Aurora Archer
Ithink this is what we were talking about. I think that that our traumas are intrinsically linked at a cellular, energetic, and conscious fluidity level. And I think that That is something that we I think, as black people, people of color we recognize and we see. And we have felt the trauma, physically, emotionally, psychologically. But I don’t think white people know that they are also in trauma.

Melissa DePino
It’s true. But I immediately see the fragility, I immediately think, Okay, well, I don’t deserve to claim trauma.

Aurora Archer
The trauma, I think, is a trauma of separation, that may not be physical, like the one that we have experienced that I have experienced that our ancestors, my parents, my father, but I think it’s a trauma of separation. And it’s at its at the cellular and it’s at the soul level. And it doesn’t make it any less worse, or it’s just simply different. And I think that this is why the notion of our freedoms are so much more intrinsically linked. Yes, they are, they are so linked. I am not free until you are free. And you especially, are not free until I am free.

Melissa DePino
It’s exactly it. And this is what we talk about as the work that we’re doing is that it creates personal transformation, and societal change, right? Absolutely.

Kelly Croce Sorg
And I think as white people, we are taught to just be nice, and we’re special, and work real hard, and then retire and get make and get more than your parents did. And then we wonder why we’re all on drugs, or we’re all addicted. And we’re all on antidepressants, and we’re all need a million yoga classes and, and it’s like, I tell my kids, I’m like, You’re not going to feel happy all the time. If we are all connected. If we are all part of this greater consciousness, and so many of us are suffering. Why wouldn’t we feel that? Why wouldn’t we feel that? Yeah. And you got broken open to feel it? Yeah, so many white people were still wearing the armor. And the cracks haven’t come through yet like that. We just don’t let ourselves feel anything.

Aurora Archer
And I think that that is the magic of what you guys are now trying to bring. Right? You’re trying to initiate or start the cracking? Yes. And that not being a bad thing. It’s actually a beautiful thing. Beautiful, painful. But it’s a really beautiful thing.

Melissa DePino
Oh, it’s so worth it. It’s so worth it.

Aurora Archer
So talk to us. So share with us. That breaking moment, that dismantling moment, then, was the burgeoning in the beginning of.

Melissa DePino
Yeah, I had to I had to put my put like my feet back under me couldn’t understand why I was depressed again, because the the last two episodes one was when I divorced my husband and which was really painful for the whole family. And, and the second was was in a really emotionally abusive relationship. And it just tore me down to nothing. But this didn’t feel like why why? So I, and I think what really what really helped besides getting that base, you know, going on and back on antidepressants and going to a therapist, was I started to just really immerse myself in learning the truth. And Michelle knows I’ve been you know, like, I am consumed a massive amount of information over the last year.

Michelle Saahene
You’ve grown a lot over the past year,

Melissa DePino
I am grateful that I’m able to like sort of model it because I did go through all that. Oh, I can’t you know, like all those feelings.

Aurora Archer
I think that’s so important is I love about Kelly and our conversation. She’s like, I fucked that up, deny and I’m like, Yeah, but okay, let’s dust ourselves off. And it’s like she and you. It’s okay. Right? That’s part of the vulnerability. That’s part of us learning.

Kelly Croce Sorg
The shame never got us anywhere.

Aurora Archer
So what you both formed was Privilege To Progress. What does that mean? What what is the intention of what you hope to create?

Michelle Saahene
Melissa and I just had this energy. When we met four days later, she looked at me and she said, the first thing she said to me was, I feel like we’re long lost best friends. We were immediately connected. Immediately, if we just can remember that and we can connect with each other. Here we are a white woman, a black woman. We didn’t know each other that day yet. We’re sitting here having a very frank, honest, open conversation about race. And we’re trying to model that behavior for other people. Yes. Today’s the first day that I learned that you went through depression. Yeah, I didn’t. But I did too. And I wonder if I we were both feeling that from each other. Yes. And both going through a depression and didn’t even know that others suffering. You’re feeling each other’s pain? Yes, yes. And you don’t even know it? Yes, yes. Yes.

Melissa DePino
Like, that’s huge. It’s huge. It’s huge.

Michelle Saahene
And when you start to educate yourself, and you can start to empathize with one another, it’s like, okay, I can see you a little bit more. Now, when you don’t see yourself full, you can’t see anyone else fully. It’s impossible. (That’s it.) So educate yourself. That’s our three things or educate yourself, speak out in your everyday life, and amplify the voices of people of color. We make it really simple for people to do, like, really, really simple. Come to our page, read, read the material that we post, share it, press the share button, that’s the amplifying on social media, you’re spreading awareness. Other Other people are going to read the information they’re going to they’re going to internalize it, hopefully, then they’re going to share it.

Melissa DePino
We are desegregating the conversation about race, online and in real life. Yes.

Aurora Archer
So we’d love to ask you, we ask all of our guest, what is The Opt-In, that you would love for our audience to take on?

Michelle Saahene
I want everyone to see each other as human. But I also want everyone to see color. I’m so tired of, I don’t see color, I want you to see everyone’s color, see my color. And then just realize that we’re all it’s we’re all just, we’re all just different colors, but we’re all human,

Melissa DePino
I’m going to ask you to opt in to the idea that you have privilege. That doesn’t mean that you don’t face hardship. It just means that if you’re white, it’s not because of the color of your skin. And to take that privilege, and instead of seeing it as an accusation, or an insult, to see it as an opportunity and an invitation to make progress for everyone, including you because everyone includes you.

Aurora Archer
Wow, this has been an absolute delight. We are so grateful for both of you. We are grateful for your friendship, for this relationship for this connection. Let’s continue to show up. We’re all just walking each other home. So thank you. Thank you, ladies. Thank you love you. We love you. Wow, that was beautiful Kelly.

Kelly Croce Sorg
Yes, it was. We had some real time heart to hearts. You know, this conversation is still relevant a year and a half after the Starbucks incident. That incident may not be in our news cycle right now. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other incidences in our news cycle right now.

Aurora Archer
My goodness Kelly, sad to say, but true. In a losing Auntie Tatianna the murder, her life being taken away, for simply being in her own home. It reverberates racism, like this happens all the time. And it’s our job to not only talk about racism, but also to interrupt it. To find out more information about Privilege To Progress, check out the links in our show notes. And be sure to be on the lookout because both Michelle and Melissa have books in the works.

Kelly Croce Sorg
Friends, we really want to hear from you. I mean, what would it feel like if your presence made people feel endangered? That just by taking up space? You could be in a situation that would put you in jail or perhaps in a coffin. We invite you just to sit with that question. What would a white woman do in that scenario?

Aurora Archer
Find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, @theoptin. And please make sure to rate and review us on Apple podcasts. It really helps people find us. I want to take a moment to thank you all for being here for staying present for tuning in. Because by joining us in these meaningful conversations, you are opening yourself up to the world. You’re expanding your understanding of society, and you’re taking the first steps towards liberation.

Kelly Croce Sorg
We know you know how important this work is and we want to keep doing it. However we need your support, you can pledge a contribution to our PayPal, Patreon Venmo. All the links are on our website, the optin podcast.com

Aurora Archer
Thank you so very much. Thank you

Kelly Croce Sorg
Our music for this episode is by Jordan McCree and The Opt-In is produced by Rachel Ishikawa.

Aurora Archer
Talk to you next week

Kelly Croce Sorg
Bye everyone

Aurora Archer
We love you