"B" is for Be the Change with Jay Coen Gilbert

Aurora: So thrilled to have you with us today Jay. Just absolutely delighted. Yeah, I am.

Kelly: It’s an honor.

Aurora: Such an honor. Such a privilege. And just just have been watching your work for years, I’m rooting from the sidelines. And just know for many of us in corporate America, you were that light of the opportunity and the possibility of the evolution that’s needed in the structures and systems that defined so much of what happens.

Jay: Aurora, I really appreciate that overly generous welcome. Thanks for creating an amazing space for a conversation and my only, uh, redirect would be to the extent that any light is shining, its reflected light. And that, uh, B lab and the B court movement, like our job is to basically shine a light or receive the light that’s coming from all those entrepreneurs and reflect that back out into the world. Like, the moon doesn’t have its light from within, but it’s shining back. I think what what we’re doing is trying to do the same thing for all these incredible entrepreneurs around the world that are the sources of light and using their businesses for this higher purpose. And so, anyway, I appreciate appreciate the welcome. But what I want to shine the light appropriately on the others that are doing the real hard stuff.

Aurora: Yeah. Thank you.

Kelly: Do you want to introduce yourself formally?.

Jay: Sure. My name is Jay. I use he and him and, uh, I’m from New York. Been in Philly since 93. Worked with some of my closest friends. I had the blessing of working with some my closest friends for the last 30 years, both at And1, a basketball, footwear and apparel company. And now at B Lab, serving a global community of business leaders that run B corporations that are using their businesses as a force for good.

Aurora: You’re refreshing. And I’d love to say that you’re more the norm, but not yet. 

Jay: No, but there-.

Aurora: And so we applaud and sort of cheer you when when we we connect with you.

Jay: Thank you. There’s a lot there’s a lot going on right now. I think there’s both inside the work in the B corp community and then outside and adjacent to that work. There’s a lot of hunger and appetite among white people to show up in a different way. First, with just awareness and understanding and recognizing our own ignorance, you know, on so many issues around the 400 years of injustice and violence that’s been done, and their legacies that are still like very, very present and real today. Most white people that I speak with on these issues have a tremendous sense of gratitude to have a space to talk about these issues and feel quite liberated through like getting an understanding of things that they feel like they were never, they were never taught. But I do think that I sense all over the country and in places that you wouldn’t expect a lot of appetite for this conversation, this kind of a conversation. So thanks for acknowledging that. But it’s it’s, um, it’s not just me. There’s there’s lots of folks that are getting ready.

Aurora: Wow. Let’s get them ready, Jay. That’s fantastic.

Jay: Yeah. Yeah.

Aurora: So. Before we go down to much within that track.

Jay: Sure.

Aurora: I think we want to really set folks up and understanding your work

Jay: Right

Aurora: B Corp, what prompted you to start it. Take us a little bit back to the history and –

Jay: Right. So it actually interestingly it started while And1 and through And1

Aurora: Really?

Jay: Yes. So And1, we wouldn’t have called ourselves a responsible business or sustainable business or anything like that cause don’t have the vocabulary. And it wasn’t sort of our it wasn’t sort of in our consciousness at the time, but we wanted to run a business that we were proud to work in, that we that our parents were proud of, that our kids were proud of us. And so how we showed up, how we treated people was at the center of what we did, whether was the people that directly worked for us or when we realized pretty early that there were literally thousands of young women, mostly in Asia, that were effectively employed by us, whether they were on our payroll or not. And once you realize, let alone once you experience that the decisions that we made in Philadelphia impacted the lives of 10,000 young women in Shenzhen who were usually from rural villages. And that how we showed up with our factories might determine how those women were paid, what conditions they lived in, both safety, health, etc. That’s pretty daunting. And you can either look away and say, not my problem or you need it.

Aurora: And many do.

Jay: And many do. Or you can say no. Those are those are also our, our family. And so And1 always had always thought of itself as a family biz. And so. But the aperture and our lens widened.And like one of the stories that we share is Seth and I had a partner named Tom.

Aurora: Seth Berger.

Jay: Yes. Seth Berger, who I think you interviewed before. He and I had a third partner named Tom Austin who was younger, smarter, more creative than us by leaps and bounds.

And he was thus in charge of getting our production first, when we first did it, moved it from the US to overseas. And he was sent by our agent into Bangladesh to go look for a factory that would help us make our shorts, our game shorts, big baggy mesh game shorts. And he’s a couple hours outside of Dhaka, gets to the factory, the factory manager is walking him around. And there’s as is typical, there’s like, you know, rows of a line, the factory line with X hundred women in each line doing the sewing of the of the garments. And the factory owner is telling Tom how many they can produce every day because we got big orders coming in from Footlocker and foot action, things like that. And they want to know that, we want to know they can handle the volume is like, oh, sure well each one of these lines can do about two thousand short today, so don’t worry, as you grow, you can grow with us. And Tom was very deadpan, says, so what happens, that’s very that’s very impressive. So what happens if they don’t meet that quota? And the factory manager says oh we beat them. And Tom, without missing a beat, says, I bet that’s effective. And the factory says Yes. Yes, very, very effective. And so, Tom, continue with the tour and left and went back to Dhaka. Needless to say, we found another factory. But we were 25 years old, twenty six years old, living the dream. You know, selling cool stuff. It’s in mainstream athletic. We’ve got the very beginning of NBA endorsers and we’re beings success, we’re having success and what we realize is that we have choices to make where our success could actually be harmful, literally could create harm for others at the other end of that value chain. And we had a choice to make and a choice that nobody would have known about. 

Aurora: Correct. 

Jay: Nobody back at the office. None of our customers, none of our consumers and none of them would even really have cared even if they knew, most wouldn’t have cared. But we would have to care because we would have to look in the mirror. And and so that’s like an example of like the early seeds of B Corp were sown in our experience at And1 with the knowledge that the decisions we made had a real impact on human beings. And so whether it was things in the factory or worker ownership or other great place to work type stuff. And1 culture because it was a mostly because it was a place we wanted to be proud of. And we wanted you know, we know our parents had given us a lot of gifts that we didn’t necessarily earn. We were born into. And so we wanted to live in a way that was worthy of those gifts. And we’re all young, hadn’t gotten to have families. And so we want our kids to end up growing up and proud of what we created and and so that experienced And1 and things like that evolved into, well, what would what would the most beautiful manifestation of these values be if they were designed into the business from the beginning? 

Aurora: Yes.

Jay: And where the purpose of the business was to express them most fully and out of that idea came the BCorp.

Aurora: So how does a twenty five year-old who has grown up, as you said, with many gifts. I’m going to name it white and privileged

Jay: Yep. Yep. And male, and cic, and rich. Like all those things. I got all the things.

Aurora: You got all the things.

Jay: I got all the things, yeah.

Aurora: How do you have the consciousness? Because as you say, Jay, so many people have taken that same trip, seeing all of those rows. Tell us a little bit about your upbringing. What what in you knew that that was not OK? What in the three of you, because I would also extend that knowing to the three of you.

Jay: So the short answer is, is, is I don’t know. The slightly longer answer is my parents and the longest answer is I learn through experience, and so I don’t pretend that this has always been there and I don’t pretend that I’m done understanding all the different ways the privilege shows up or all the different ways that that what I do or we do creates injustice or at least is complicit with it. And so I don’t pretend that this is all figured out. But but I think the origins of it were both from my parents were both entrepreneurs, and my mom was a head hunter in a super male old, like the definition of an old boy network back in the 70s, sort of, you know, Virginia Slims, you know, she can have it all type and that type of world. That was her

Kelly: Come a long way, baby. 

Jay: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so so she ran what at the time was the was the the largest women or people of color led executive search firm in the country out of New York. And it was all women, the only the only male that I remember in the office at my mom’s office growing up was an Africa, happened to be an African-American man. I got him, Al Wakefield. And. And so when I went to, you know, to work with my mom on a school break or something, we’d have vacation, we’re just going to mom’s office. Like

Kelly: go, mom. I love that.

Jay: Like every, every very corner office was it was a woman. And so it wasn’t like a lesson. It wasn’t like, oh, we’re gonna teach you about gender equity in the workplace 

Kelly: No, you just saw it.

Jay: It’s just like, oh, well, yeah, of course, you know. And so she and her partner were running and all the other partners are women and. So. So there was an example. And they and they brought in and they cultivate and they develop the talents of women very consciously in that business. And of course, then place them in that early era of women busting through glass ceiling after glass ceiling after glass ceiling. My mom had a role in that. And so I learned some of that through her through through just observation. And then my dad, as would be his energy, would be a little bit more explicit in his teaching. He’s an architect and doing corporate, mostly corporate interiors in that same time period, 70s, 80s in New York. And I can remember two different stories. One was: His partner at the time, they had their own firm. His partner of the time. Someone told my dad that I think this contract that we won, we actually paid somebody off to get it. My dad approached his partner and said, hey, I heard basically a rumor. I’m sure it’s not true. I heard a rumor that we may have gotten this deal because we we we paid off someone. And his partner said, yeah. I mean, that’s like the way business is done. Like, don’t worry about it. I got it handled. And my dad, as he related this to me later, my dad said. Well, like, that’s not the way I want to work. And he said, well, look, if we don’t do it, someone else gonna do it. It’s like this is we’re the only ones. And he said, well, if you don’t want to do that business, maybe we shouldn;t be partners. And my dad said, well, that’s fair. And so they broke. And so my dad left a thriving partnership to then start his own company around an ethical decision that was presented as a business as usual decision and with a very typical response of, oh, we don’t do it, somebody else is gonna do it. So what’s that? You’re not really changing anything. And there was another story where my dad was pitching a business now in his own firm. This is however many years later pitching business in his own firm. And as he was walking around doing a pre-lease tour and they’re walking around the facility saying, we’re gonna do this for engineers in this, for this and this, for that. And my dad stops at one of the cubicles with there’s an engineer, head down doing some drafting or some calculating, whatever their engineers do. And my dad said, oh, so what are you working on? And the engineer looks up and says, oh, it’s a guidance system. He goes, oh, cool. For what? And the guy kind of like, you know, pauses, looks up, says cruise missiles. And my dad had become involved in the at the time, early 80s Reagan era evil empire nuclear disarmament movement and actually organizes his profession around something called “architects for social responsibility.” And he said, oh, so you’re designing guidance systems to put into cruise missiles that are basically nuclear tipped warheads. Yeah. That’s what that’s what we do here. And so my dad finished the tour, walked back and the head of facilities or whatever it is said, hey, congratulations, Sydney, you’ve got the job. We love you. You know, we really want to hire SPGA. My dad said, I’m so grateful. You guys are so great. You know, you’re doing really. It’s a very successful company. We would be honored to do the work, but unfortunately, I have to turn it down. And this similar exchange of sort of incredulousness of like, wait, we just offered you this huge contract, very high profile. Why not? Well, you’re designing. I can’t use my gifts, my talents to create a more productive work environment where that which is being produced are weapons of mass destruction. And the very typical. Well, if you don’t do it, we’re just gonna go hire another architect like this isn’t gonna get designed. It’s not like these people aren’t…we’re not going to. He’s like, that’s true, but it won’t be me. And as someone of Jewish descent. I know that there were architects who designed Auschwitz. And. I’m not going to be that architect. And so from both my mom and from my dad, I think they instilled in me either implicitly or more explicitly lessons that there were choices that you made in life. In their case, as entrepreneurs and business people, and that those choices had real consequences. And so if I think about like early origin story of the B corp movement, at least for me, obviously be different for all of the partners of B lab. But for me, it was sort of learning from my parents that we have the gift of choice and the choices we make matter. And so what if all the choices we made were to serve the higher purpose of using our business to create value for all of the different stakeholders in our business, the workers, the community, the folks in our supply chain, even if we don’t see them, the natural world on which all life depends. I think all those things matter. And so the aperture of my lens just kept getting wider

Aurora: I’m a little bit emotional for those on the line. After hearing this story, because it’s understanding the ripple impact of our choices and our decisions and our actions. And I think sometimes as humans, we are very short sighted in our ability to see the ripple effect of our actions, positive or negative. 

Jay: Yeah.

Aurora: So talk to us, Jay. Break down the early beginning of creating B Lab and B Corp. Ten years in the making.

Jay: Mm hmm.

Aurora: And at that time, folks weren’t having this conversation.

Jay: Much less, much

Aurora: Much less

Jay: Much less. And so we were to be clear, like we were we didn’t invent this out of whole cloth like there. There are folks that were doing incredible pioneering, trailblazing work for decades before we ever showed up, you know. And so we’re standing on the shoulders of giants. And there were groups like Social Venture Network and Investors Circle and Business Alliance for Local Living Economy, run by an incredible local icon here in Philly, Judy Wicks from the White Dog Cafe. And so there’s there was amazing work going on, folks in socially responsible investment movement. And and, you know, corporate social responsibility, like all those things existed. So I don’t want to pretend that this was invented. But what was what was the insight, if we had one, was that there were probably three or four hundred different certifications already out there. Fairtrade this, organic that, LEED certified building, Forest Stewardship, Certified Wood, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But in a world of 500 certifications, it’s almost a world of none because none of us can keep track of all that stuff. And so and all those things are about individual practices, a labor practice and environmental practice or something else, or individual products like an Energy Star appliance or something. But none of them are about the company. And so at the end of the day, I don’t go to work for a product. I go to work for a company. And if I am fortunate enough to have enough money to invest, I don’t invest in a product. I invest in a company. And so the unit of engagement, if you will, is the company. And yet there was no, oddly, there were no certifications that said: here’s a good company and not just some slick, good marketing campaign.

Kelly: Yeah. Besides Spotlight, the Better Business Bureau or something. 

Jay: Right. Right. Right.

Kelly: Had the phone book that you did.

Jay: And, you know, I don’t know much about that, but certainly I assume that was like a basic like. There are people that aren’t gonna rip you off. 

Kelly: Right. Right. These are legit. Come here.

Jay: Yeah. Some old school like basic they’re legal operators there, you know, etc.. But, but, but not with any at least clear, transparent, rigorous set of standards that looked at worker practices, environmental practices, community engagement, things like that, supply chain practices. And so we basically looked at all those things that already existed and said there ought to be sort of this meta frame, right. This umbrella that would help us all make it easier for us to make the decisions that we want to make. We want to align our purchases. We want to align our employment decisions. We want to align our investment decisions with our values. And we just make it too hard for people to do that. So if there was a single mark that could shine like a beacon and say, oh, this is the kind of company that you that you can believe in because someone has done the hard work of creating and then verifying against those standards. And that might make it easier for people to work for buy from invest in companies that are doing right by people and planet.

And so it’s that basic idea that B Corp came from. And originally, like as I said, like I have never had and literally never had an original thought in my life.

And and and so B Corp is the same thing is it was building on all of those existing ideas and saying like what would help serve all of them? And one of the things that would help cut through the clutter is if there is a certification that speaks to the business. The original idea, like most, came out of philanthropy. And so, I could eat bowls full of salad only if it had Newman’s Own dressing on it. And. And, you know, glasses and glasses of his lemonade and the popcorn. And I was like that had that little heart money logo on the dressing. And I was like, wow, they give all their money to charity. At And1, in our original business plan, we gave 5 percent to charity. And then as we’re doing readings about Ben and Jerry’s and Tom’s of Maine and Stonyfield Farms and some of the early pioneers, body shop, in sustainable business, they were giving 10 percent because that’s the most allowable under charitable deduction laws in the U.S.. Oh, wait, maybe we could give 10.

These folks, you give it a hundred. Like, how amazing is that? What if there were a bunch of businesses that were like Newman businesses that were giving all their money away. It’d be sort of this evergreen source of charitable wealth for communities, that was the original idea. And it was only through engaging with a bunch of these entrepreneurs all around the country, through it, through groups like Social Venture Network or Investor Circle or Valley that those entrepreneurs helped me see that it’s lovely if you’re going to give money to charity, but how you made that money in the first place was actually not just as important or probably more important, and it probably bigger impact. And so that wasn’t that wasn’t like mine, let alone our thought. That was like that was the wisdom of the crowd. But back then, you had to go talk to actually people face to face and not just sort of go on line to get that information. But it was really the wisdom of all those entrepreneurs and investors really thought leaders who said, Jay you need you need to widen the aperture in your lens and look beyond the charitable giving line and look at cost of goods. And look at who you’re hiring and how they’re compensate, you know, all of those things. And and at least where we are now on their journey is that we’re that B Corp’s look at a company’s overall performance and a company has to meet a minimum threshold of performance, then be transparent about that performance. And then they have to do this awesome thing, which is they actually change the legal DNA of their business so that they’re legally accountable to consider the impact of their decisions on the people that work there. The communities that they work in, and the natural world that we’re all gonna get to walk around and hopefully our kids and our grandkids get to walk around and like that’s part of the legal DNA of a B corp. So you have to do all three things in order in order to qualify for that certification. The B stands for, it comes from, it’s inspired by the Gandhi quote attributed to him that we must be the change we seek in the world. It’s also about personal agency.

Aurora: Yes. 

Jay: Like we’re not waiting for somebody else to show us the way or do it for us like we have to be the change. And so that’s where the B comes from. Anyway, that’s the bit of the origin story.

Aurora: So, Jay, let’s talk about this scaffolding, because you call it. I think you called it legal, the legal performance of a corporation, an organization which is made up of a lot of scaffolding. Right. The system. 

Jay: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

Aurora: And which is comprised of workers, supply chain, operational model, investment, measurement of performance etc. Share a little bit, maybe through an example, of how an organization goes through this certification and process with with you.

Jay: Right. Right. Right. So it could be a dairy farmer or a V.C. funded tech company or a big multinational. They go through the same process.

Kelly: Is it every industry?

Jay: Yes. So there are B Crops in probably a hundred fifty hundred seventy different industries in 70 countries around the world. And they range from small sole proprietor consulting firm to financial services firms to big, you know, billion multibillion dollar CPG, consumer products companies, public listed company. So it’s it’s not what you do, it’s how you do it. And anybody can choose to do it is basically the idea.

And so. But all those companies go through the same process, which is they all complete an assessment tool, use an assessment tool called the B impact assessment. And that B impact assessment is basically a free roadmap and tool kit for anybody that wants to learn how to use their business force for good. So it’s full of two hundred questions. Round number two hundred questions around worker practices, supply chain practices, community practices, et cetera. And so a company will be asked about all those things. And because our basic philosophy is a good question is way more powerful than any particular answer. And so our job is to ask the best questions. And so if you start with the intention of how good can a business be? Well, here are some questions to help you think through how good your business is. And so we ask those questions and people get to use that free tool with, you know, put their answers in in the cloud based system. It’s all confidential, etc., because there is literally eighty thousand businesses that now use that free tool. There’s amazing benchmarking data. So all of us type a competitive business people get to like check out how we’re doing against the against the average company, against companies in our industry of our size in our part of the world. So every company goes through that process. If they go through the verification process, they get a minimum verified score of at least 80 out of 200 available points on the impact assessment.

They’re then eligible for certification and then they have to meet those two other requirements, which is when they have to be willing to be transparent about their score. Basically so the B impact report, which is basically the the the the point value totals of all the answers that they’ve given then has to be transparent. So any any listener could go onto B corporation dot net and from Patagonia to Kickstarter to whatever they do. To Jenny’s Splendid ice cream. They could go look and find out there their B impact score and then how they scored specifically for their work or practices or community practices or environmental practices. So that’s a transparency requirement.

And then the last thing is that legal piece, because you talk about, Aurora, you talked about like systems and structures. The current capitalist system is set up with this very elegant operating system. Right. Very, very. There’s a single rule that that rules them all, which is that your job is to maximize your financial return for your shareholders. And that’s a beautiful, simple, elegant rule. But it has massive consequences. And if we’re being generous, we’ll call them unintended consequences and those unintended consequences. It is if your job is to maximize return, then you’re going to externalize as many costs as you can, you’re going to lower your costs as much as possible. And part of that is pushing those costs onto other people. And so the B Corp model requires a legal shift which gets at that core sort of source code of capitalism. And it fixes this source code error, which is called shareholder primacy, which puts the interests of the shareholders above everybody else’s. And it says we’re going to fix that source code error so that the purpose of the business is to create a material positive impact on the world. And your fiduciary duty is to consider your impact on all of your stakeholders, including your shareholders, like they matter. They don’t they don’t mean not matter. And they should get returns. They should just. They should just make a living, not a killing. 

Aurora: Yes.

Jay: And and if they do that, there are B crops that are getting hundreds of millions dollars of venture capital. They’re going public. They’re selling their businesses for tons and tons of money, like there’s plenty of money to flow around. But it’s just saying that there certain guardrails within which we should compete. And those guardrails are we should respect the inherent dignity and humanity of every person. We should respect the rights of future generations to enjoy the planet that we enjoy. And if you can do that like that seems pretty simple. So do unto others like a golden rule. If you can apply that golden rule, you can operate within that golden rule, then knock yourself out. Compete the heck out of everybody. But like, you’re going to do it within that within those parameters. And right now, the current operating system for business is the only parameters are what’s legal. And.

And back to sort of prior discussions, sort of off mic discussions. We all know that what what is legal in our own history here in the United States is not always very ethical. And so we have an entire capitalist system that was built on the labor of enslaved people, of African descent and on the land of dispossessed native peoples. Those are the two biggest cost inputs into our capitalist system. And so our wealth and power as Americans was built on a very unfree marketplace. But that was legal. All that was legal. And so if the only constraint is do what’s legal, we know from our own history that that can lead to trouble because we all our in every generation we have blind spots, which we have today, which we don’t know what they are because that’s why they’re blind spots. But we have to know that that’s that that that potential exists in all of us. And so how do we design a system that recognizes that we have blind spots and that the law is usually racing to catch up with our evolved sense of ethics, community, morality, etc. And so the the B court model is an attempt, imperfect as it is, it’s an attempt to say the first principle should be respect the inherent dignity of people in place. And so it’s so inspiring for me is that there’s over 3000 businesses in those 70 countries and 170 industries and that are actually doing it right. And they’re walking the talk and they are their living, breathing proof that, of course, you can do this.

Aurora: Yes. I recall very distinctly many moons ago in my career having a quote unquote, coaching conversation with an H.R. resource leader. Who was sort of sharing how I had tremendous acumen and I was such a great commercial leader, but that I cared too much and that I.

Jay: Right. Right. What’s that about?

Aurora: Yeah. And that I cared too much and that I took a hard stance on righteousness. And that she felt that I would be better served if I went to nonprofit. 

Jay: Right. Right. Right.

Kelly: Go where that good is done over there. We don’t do good over here. Other side of the fence.

Aurora: Exactly. And what was so bizarre is that I’m sitting in this conference room where behind her is the backdrop of the values of the organ of said organization. 

Jay: Right.

Aurora: And what’s happening within me is this visceral disconnect with what she’s saying and what I know to be true and that it’s not binary. And knowing that we we can do both. We can have great commercial impact and minimize the harm that we create for those inside of the organization, through the organization and outside of the organization. 

Jay: As we grow up, we tackle increasingly complicated, difficult tasks. Aas we grow up as business people, and we’re in the process of growing up right now, as we’re in the process of growing up into into a more mature business people, it’s going to be more complicated, which means we’re no longer seeking to maximize value for one constituency. We’re trying to balance the interests of multiple constituencies while we create value for all. And yes, that’s harder. Like, no question. And it’s harder for your kid to be a good team player than to be a standout star. But it’s the it’s the teams that win championships. And so, if you’re all trying to win the championship and the game of life, we’re gonna have to work together and which means we’re gonna have to seek co-operative advantage and figure out how our succe- my success doesn’t depend upon keeping you down and vise versa. I think, I think this is all evolutionary change, not revolutionary change, but it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t come with growing pains.

Aurora: Correct. And I think that what B Corp and the visibility of the organizations that they’re modeling the way because I think historically the answer has been, okay, we go to nonprofit or with people, we’re not seeing the ability to actually cut through and create commercial impact and gain and success and wealth without being being clear on the collaborative responsibility of that, to people and to planet.

Jay: Yeah. And I think it’s actually it’s a perversion. Like I think that we tend to talk about the B Corp movement as a conservative movement. Like conservative with a small c. Like returning to roots. Businesses used to be rooted in community and the people that own them, they and their kids, their grandkids work there and they went to school or church or literally whatever was there.

Kelly: Served. They served.

Jay: It was all it was all there. So they knew, if they did something bad like they were gonna hear about it on Sunday, you know.

Or it’s at the school, PTA, whatever it was like you couldn’t you could hide behind some global opaque supply chain or chain of investment fiduciaries. And now over the last 50 years, but certainly with acceleration over the last 20, 30, we’ve had this in much more globalized and financialized economy that removes us from the consequences of our decisions because they become just like digital readouts. And it’s hard to care about a digital readout. And so when we talked about like Tom going to that factory in Bangladesh or my mom’s decisions to hire and promote and place women in a male corporate world like those are decisions that they could they could see the people.

Aurora: Yes.

Jay: That they were helping or harming. And as Brian Steven talk- Bryan Stevenson talks about, is the power of proximity. And so when you can see and feel the people that you’re impacting, it’s a lot easier to care as you were told not to. And so. So what B Corp does is it tries to make visible those things that the financialized, globalized system has made increasingly invisible. 

Aurora: Yes. 

Jay: And so we tend to show up hopefully with a bit of a generosity of perspective, which says the system has been set up to fail us, and we’re going to we’re going to start with the assumption that the people in the system would like to do right. And so how do we help them do that and how do we how do we create a system that enables them to do that and incentivizes them and rewards that behavior rather than today, it effectively punishes that behavior. Like there are CEOs, that they get fired- or Aurora I don’t know if you want to share. But like, you had your own experience.

Aurora: Oh yes. I’ve had multiple experiences where, you know, I have either been shut down or I know my expression is “frog marched out of meetings” because I don’t fundamentally agree that there is has to be a choice between the balance sheet. And I’m going to steal Kelly’s words, because Kelly, she articulates in many ways it is. 

Kelly: We chose the balance sheet over humanity

Aurora: Choosing a balance sheet over humanity. I don’t believe that’s choice. I am very clear where I will stand every single time. And at the consequence. And I also appreciate and know that this is a luxury. And I know it’s a luxury because I know I am now in a privileged position, but I also believe that the consequence of losing my job or the consequence of not getting promoted or the consequence of not being part of the in corporate group, I was OK with that. Because very early on in my career, I made a choice that I always wanted to be proud of the person I saw reflected back in the mirror. And once I had children, the reflection of the person I saw through their eyes. I remember having a very clear conversation with my husband. And the good news is that we met at work. So it wasn’t any surprise to him how I was going to land in certain decisions from a corporate perspective. But I always said, you know, I am very clear that one day, many days, I will be frog marched and fired for what I believe in because it’s a consequence that I’m willing to take.

Jay: It’s harder when the system is set up to to force us into the false choice. And so if the system was set up, if you’re working for a company whose legal obligation forget about like some enlightened leader, some CEO who’s totally gets it like like. Sure. But like if that’s actually backed by the fiduciary duty of the directors and officers of the organization, is to consider the impact of the decisions on all their stakeholders, on the workers, on the community environment, then all of a sudden you’re supported by the institution to do the same balancing that we do every day in our relationships. Right. We don’t show up maniacally focused on only one outcome with our kids or with our friends or with our spouses. But somehow when we go into that workplace and we see that that statement of our values on the wall, we’re supposed have checked the rest of our values at the door. When we come in, then we’re living in, out of integrity with ourselves. And that’s that’s not very healthy for one thing, creates a lot of stress. But it also a lot lot of people, a lot of research, I would say it also produces poor results. And so there’s also like a really strong business case for running a business that is creating value for all stakeholders, because then you have more buy in and you’re given more grace when you make mistakes and you have everybody realizing that this this organization cares about me. So I will then care about it. It’s reciprocal and.

Kelly: It’s in relationship.

Jay: Yeah, it’s in relationship. It’s not a transaction. Exactly right. Kelly, like B Corp’s live in a relational economy, not a transactional economy. And that’s a very different way to show up in the world.

Kelly: I’ll say. Yeah, I mean, that’s what I was just I keep thinking to myself like, wow, you’re doing this in the white supremacist matrix. That is just incredible to me. You know, you’re interrogating everything, but yet still we still have these blind spots, like we still are in the soup. My personality was developed in the white matrix in the white supremacy matrix. 

Jay: Sure. 

Kelly: You know, and I’m just curious, like, are there like really specific initiatives for *bi-poch, you know, leadership or companies or equity in that way? We’re really like pushing people forward that haven’t been.

Jay: There’s like there’s three things going on the B Corp community right now that have got me like wicked inspired. And they’re all community led, equity centered efforts that our job, to go back to the reflected light, our job is to sort of recognize to see that leadership emerging, to connect them with other like minded leaders and then to support their, support and amplify, their work. And so one of them, the earliest of them was around female leadership within the B corp community. And so sort of underwritten or sponsored and posted convened by a brand called Eileen Fisher out of it. 

Kelly: Know it well. 

Jay: Yeah. So an amazing company. They’ve been walking the walk for decades before it had a name.

Kelly: Yes.

Jay: Before there was ever a B corp in anybody’s brain. An incredible employee owned company with deep sustainability practices and a deep commitment to cultivating supporting women around the world. They wanted to convene a group of women, B Corp leaders, CEOs, founders, etc. And so over 100 gathered at their offices up in Irvington New York last year and again this year to figure how could they amplify their voices. So they created a group called We the Change. So a spin on the Be the Change piece. And we the change as as as a group of women that we’re gonna support female leadership not only within the B Corp community, but from that position more broadly. There’s a similar group called the B Corp Climate Collective that has is feeling they’re sort of our our early climate leaders on the climate emergency and collapse, ecological collapse that we’re seeing happen all around us. And and they convened in Taos, New Mexico. Also a B corp, so if you’re looking for a good ski vacation, you can go do that and and and and go to a B corp ski resort. And they convened the B Corp climate leaders and that that effort became then a global effort that ended up showing up at the COP 25 gathering just last week in Madrid, where the largest group, the largest and most ambitious commitment of business leaders in the world was over 530 B corps from around the world, from over 30 countries committed to achieve net zero by 2030.

So 20 years ahead of the Paris agreement for 2050, over 500 B Corps. And that was such a big, big announcement that it got center stage in front of all the heads of state, et cetera, as the most ambitious commitment from the business community to signal pick from a small business committee, signal that this isn’t like job killing, political issue. This is this is about the health of our businesses, which are impacted by negative by climate risk and the health of our communities and families. And so for all those reasons, B Corps around the world rally to that. I just saw on my little WhatsApp thing this morning, a bunch of B Corps took out an ad, said, let’s get to zero was the name, was the ad with a bunch of B corps had signed it with that sort of an invitation to others to join. And the ad was translated into a half dozen languages and run in magazines and newspapers all around Europe last last week. And I just saw that in today’s paper in the Netherlands, the Netherlands version of Warby Parker sort of eyeglass company, direct to consumer, you know, venture backed a fast growth company. I think it’s called Ace and Tate or something like that. Took out a full page ad, said something like “We’re getting to zero. Dear B Corps.” And it was like an open letter to the B Corps community said, we see you, we heard you, we’re following you. 

Kelly: Wow. 

Jay: And so we’re committing to net zero by 2030. In the meantime, we’re going to offset everything while we’re on our path. And thanks for leading the way. And so like the example of when that B Corps are leading, and they’re not the first leaders, I’m not saying that because of the first or the best on any of those issues. But they are they are a powerful example of collective action that that inspires others and makes others think, oh, that’s possible.

Aurora: Exactly right. 

Jay: And everyone wants to be in a party like no one wants to be first on the dance floor, but like second, third, fourth.

So if like if we’ve got the crazies that are willing to be the first on the dance floor, we make it safe for everybody else to come out and we make it fun. And so that’s like a second one. So there’s the gender piece.

There’s a climate piece, and then there’s one that goes a little bit deeper. That was that was probably the most uncomfortable. And I’ll say this, you know, including for myself, there’s a group of B Corps that founded something called Dismantle Collective, which is a group of self identified group of B Corps, that is a black led group of business leaders who were who exist to name, disrupt and dismantle systems and structures of white supremacy within their own companies, within our own community. And then through that example and all the mistakes we’ll make, hopefully invite others to go on that same journey with us. And so whether it’s racial equity, gender equity, climate justice. The community of big corporations is willing to be reflective enough. Because we ask tough questions. Back to the question piece. 

Aurora: Yes.

Jay: We asked tough questions which enable us to go, oh, wow, you know, maybe we’re not all that and a bag of chips. So like, how do we. What do we do differently and how do we how do we support each other in that journey? Because we’re social creatures. So it’s hard to do stuff alone. It’s easier to do something with somebody. And so on all three of those events, all three of those sort of collectives our job is to is to see, recognize and support their leadership and then invite others to that party. And it’s super fun. Like, it’s just. And those companies not only support each other on cool actions like that, but they’re supporting each other with collect with collaborative marketing campaigns and sourcing candidates for hires. And, you know, I got this I.T. problem. So there’s all kinds of like just core then. Now you’re relating with other business people like a typical WPO chapter or whatever it is. But it’s coming from a place of deep rooted connectedness and values and performance that has like game respecting game from the beginning. And now all of a sudden you’re in a different conversation like instantly. And that’s that’s like the joy of my work is I get to I get to be with those types of people all the time and be inspired by them every day.

Aurora: It’s a fun party. I am like doing my happy dance. Oh, my God. That’s fantastic. Yeah. And, you know, I’m going to add another word to your word of fun. Collective liberation. 

Jay: Yeah. 

Aurora: Yeah.

Jay: That word, the liberation is one that I see. Let’s. It’s showing up in lots of different spaces than it has shown up for a long time in other spaces. And like many of those words, it’s one of a first like tilt my head and go, huh? What’s that about? Is that really for me? And then the more I’ve sat with it, the more I’ve been in conversation, it was like, yes. Like it is incredibly freeing. It is incredibly. And when you feel light and you’re happier and you’re being pulled up and out. Like that’s a beautiful place to be. And I’ve certainly seen that with the Dismantle Collective. And so. Yeah. Thanks for lifting that up.

Aurora: Yes.

Kelly: It’s a good party. I was literally sitting ordering a glass of B Corp certified wine wearing Athleta clothes that had the B Corp on the label. And I was like, this could be really great. Like, where else am I gonna see this?

Aurora: And that’s it. Cause that’s actually the place that I’d love to go to. 

Jay: Yeah. 

Aurora: Because it goes back to the point that you made at the beginning. 

Jay: Yeah. 

Aurora: Choices. And I mean, it connected to consumerism. And as a marketer I have a I have a lot of faith in consumers and I have a lot of faith that once consumers begin to understand, actually have awareness, you have an understanding they can take that understanding and use the power of their voice-

Jay: For sure.

Aurora: And most importantly, the power of their dollar. 

Jay: Right. Right. Right. 

Aurora: And so. Let’s talk about the importance that all of our listeners have in choosing, as Kelly articulated, what she is consuming, what she’s bringing into her home and why.

Jay: Yeah. We launched a campaign last year called Vote Every Day.

Kelly: I love that. I did see that.

Jay: And the idea is like every day’s election day, we vote with our dollars. We vote with our, whether we’re purchasing or investing, we’re voting with our dollars. And we vote with our feet with where we go to work every day. I can buy my casual shoes from *Alavert my dress shoes from Nisolo, my running shoes from Newton.

Kelly: Coffee from stump town.

Jay: Coffee from stump town. They’re going to be there are gonna be folks swimming at every end of the pool from large multinationals that were like, wow, there they met those same standards. That’s surprising. To like the smaller artisan feels homegrown one that we’re like, oh, yeah, of course. And so it’s gonna span all of that. And our our energy is we have to transform the whole economy, not just be a cool niche within the economy.

Aurora: Yes.

Jay: And so. Yeah. So you can buy milk or milk or milk substitutes like, you know. 

Kelly: Right. Right. 

Jay: Dairy substitutes, subsidies. And you can buy. You know, I can I can rock my indigenous designs sweater, you know, or the jacket that’s sitting over there, you know. And I can my bomba socks. Or you know you can if you want to be intentional that can actually be quite fun. No, I’m looking for this for myself, for my kid, for my wife, my cousin. 

Kelly: We have to buy stuff all the time. 

Jay: And and so what can I go? Whether it’s the grocery store, gift shopping or whatever it might be for Valentine’s Day there there’s B Corp stuff that you can you can vote every day for your values, vote every for B corps and pretty much any category for any gift, for anything for yourself. You can go on vacations and you can go do you know you can go to bodysurfing yoga in Nosara in Costa Rica and do that and stay at a B Corp.

Aurora: Yeah. And you know, the other way that I phrase that for myself in our family is, is the energy. Be conscious and aware of the energy that you are giving and the choices that you’re making and the energy with which that was produced. 

Jay: Yeah. 

Aurora: And then that you are putting it on your body because it’s all energy.

Jay: Right. Right. And we we literally absorb it. 

Aurora: Yes.

Jay: Like think about all the personal care products from seventh generation or a method or Sundial how they’re made, whether it’s how the land was treated, how the animals were treated, how the people were treated, that does show up somewhere, somehow. Even if you think it’s only in in the cognitive dissonance, the compartmentalization you have to do to say, well, I’m not going to care about how this is created because I’m just using it, like even doing that causes some harm. 

Kelly: Oh, yes. Oh yes.

Jay: Forget about what you think there is anything actually transmitted energetically which different listeners can decide, like how you want to get there. But but there’s no question that if we’re forced to compartmentalize and I just choose not to think about it, it’s too painful. Well, you’re not thinking because it’s painful. Well, why is it painful? Because it because it hurts to think that what you’re doing semi consciously or unconsciously is actually causing harm to someone else. And so for an extra five with an extra five minutes, you know, down the aisle or on your laptop, you can order something from a company that, you know, has been vetted and verified for the care.

Kelly: Hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Like, why is it hard for us to think of painful things? It’s like, oh, well, you get to not think about it too.

Jay: Right. Right

Kelly: That effects you. 

Aurora: So what else is important for our listeners to understand and know about B Corp as we are choosing to vote every day?

Jay: I’d say the the holy trinity of applying this energy to our life in the marketplace. Start with the easy stuff, which is what you buy because we make those purchasing decisions all the time and no one, including myself, not everything I buy is a B corp. Not everything I wear is a B Corp. Not everything I eat is a B corp. It just it’s just sometimes it’s just, you just can’t. Or you or just you just choose to not do that much extra work. And so like no one’s saying that that they that their house is not made out of glass, but that’s a good place to start. And and be be generous to yourself and know that it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing. And so if if next week you’re going to buy something for a B corp and you didn’t last week. Well, then that’s one step closer. Right. And if if next month, the next birthday that you’re gonna shop for it, you’re going to at least start looking for the. Then that’s, that’s a step. Because the more you do it, the more your muscles will be exercising, and the easier it will be the way that your muscles will be exercised, you’ll know where to look next time. It’ll be easier. The transaction costs will be lower. The friction be lower inside. And so, I’d start with the with the purchasing because that’s like the obvious place. The next most obvious place, which is harder. And definitely harder for some than from others. But we’re in a pretty tight labor market and I would say that every CEO that I speak with, the biggest value of being a B corp to them is actually because they want you to work for them. Every CEO of the smallest company, the biggest company, the tech funded company, the real estate, whatever they are, they know that their most important asset is their people and they’re trying to attract and retain the best people. And so if you, in your interviews, if you say tell me about the positive impact you have on your community, how you steward the environment, how you support your workers development, growth and equity, and you you ask them those questions when you’re interviewing for jobs, that will be that is a straight line from the H.R. person to the CEO that that’s what that’s what the best candidates are asking. So we better have answers if we don’t have them. And whether that means if you’re a B Corp or not a B Corp, have you used to B impact assessment to measure you? What’s your B score? Or at least just give me your plan. Maybe you don’t like the B, folks. Maybe you like something else. That’s great. But like, what’s your what’s your game plan for for being a positive force in the world. That’s no longer a fringe question. Like the Business Roundtable announced the purpose of the corporations to create value for all stakeholders. The World Economic Forum has just announced the same thing for better capitals, but this is no longer sort of a fringe idea. So any CEO should be capable is going to be required to get those answers. So the second thing is, your most powerful act in the marketplace is choosing where you work every day. And so while you can’t often change that tomorrow. If you’re starting off 2020 and you’re thinking about a goal for the year, it may be like, OK, during this year, I’m no more closely align where I work with how I want to work and it means you don’t have to change jobs, you can just make the place you are working allow you to bring your whole self to work today because any company can use the impact assessment to measure and manage their performance, 80,000 companies. It doesn’t mean you have to be a B corp. So the second thing is that. And the third thing is that, may be the most challenging. And the other things where you invest. Am I willing to take a real look at where my money’s invested and whether or not my money is invested in places that align with my values. And that could be where a bank is it going to some large corporate thing that’s invested in things I don’t really care about or don’t know. Or is it invested in this in a in a community bank, a B corp bank, a credit union or something where I know the money’s going to stay here in my community, support my community, be invested in a sustainable, regenerative, inclusive, equitable projects. What we want people to know is like where you buy, where you work, where you invest, you can align them. And just begin to take whatever the next step is on each of those fronts over the course of the next year. And that’s going to make a huge difference. That’s the ripple effect that’s going to cascade through through the economy. And all of a sudden will create a very different economy that centered on well-being of people, not just wealth of investors. And that’s gonna be a much, much more fun place to live.

Kelly: Yes. Ah, Jay. So nourishing. Thank you. I mean, really. I have never looked at the balance sheet and humanity together like that. And you really just paint an awesome picture. 

Jay: Thank you. 

Kelly: What intergenerational wisdom would you like to impart?

Jay: My dad framed it aschoice. Boy chick, he’d say, like, you know, my job is to give you a choice, what you do with it as it is on you. And so what I would pass along is that you’ve got choice to make. And particularly for those that are that are born with some amount of privilege of some kind. We’ve got more choices than most. And we have access to more power than most. And so how how do we how do we exercise our freedom of choice in a way that’s worthy of the gifts we’ve been given would be like how I’d want to pass that along to my kids, to their kids.

Kelly: Amazing.

Aurora: Jay. This has been a true honor as a corporate fan girl of your work, the team’s work. Beautiful. Thank you so much for this opportunity and continued continued success to you, to the team to B corp. Let’s do it.

Kelly: Yeah, keep doing you guru. 

Jay: Yeah. Thanks, Kelly. Thanks Aurora. It’s been a lot of fun. Take care. 

Kelly: Wow, Jay is such a joy to speak with. And honestly I can’t imagine that Jay’s perspective represents the majority in corporate America.

Aurora:  Well, it doesn’t. But I think it’s important to note, that it’s changing. More and more people like Jay are cropping up. 

Kelly: I really just appreciate how Jay is giving agency back to the consumer. Like I so frequently feel like I don’t have a choice with what to buy. So I am seriously excited to be supporting more B Corps companies. 

Aurora: Yes! Please, please check out companies that are B Corps certified. We’ll link all that information in our show notes.

Kelly: We want to hear from you! What practices have you adapted to be a conscious consumer? And if you’re a business owner, how do you uphold equity in your company? Find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram @the opt in.

Aurora: If you enjoy this podcast, we encourage you to support our work so we may continue to create and curate the conversations we all need to be having! Our Paypal, Venmo and Patreon are on our website at www.abundanceprod.com. 

Kelly: Music for this episode is by Jordan McCree. And the Opt-In is produced by Rachel Ishikawa.

Kelly: Talk soon.

Aurora: Bye.